Social Justice Warrior?
Apr. 28th, 2015 02:36 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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grrm has been writing about the Hugos lately, and one of his side issues has been that he finds the term "SJW" very offensive, and wants "his side" to be called "liberals" or "progressives" instead.
I am fascinated by this, for a couple of reasons. One: I rather like the term "Social Justice Warrior". I prefer "social justice cleric" for myself, but I'm fine with SJW. I find it a convenient term for distinguishing those with a keen interest in social justice and tolerance of diversity in many and varied forms. I know SJW was originally a conservative jab at us, but I thought it had been reclaimed, like "gay" or "queer". The other is that I think of myself as an SJW, but not a liberal or a progressive. So the substitution doesn't work for me. I suppose SJWs could claim "egalitarian" instead, but who would claim to be anti-egalitarian?
Then again, who wants to come out as antisocial injustice pacifists? As insults go, SJW has never had a lot of sting. n_n
EDIT: I've locked comments to this entry, 'cause I'm not enjoying some of the conversation the topic is generating. Y'all feel free to carry on in your own journals if you've more to say. :)
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Date: 2015-04-28 08:08 pm (UTC)As long as they're not conservatives/Republicans/"reactionaries". Then the "warrior" side comes out. ];-)
It seems to me that the decisions surrounding what terms are offensive are often fairly arbitrary. Not too long ago, for example, "oriental" became an offensive insult, which many Asians are not up to speed on. "Negro" went through this years ago, but hundreds of organization names have yet to be updated to reflect the New Offensive Reality. Perhaps they are waiting for (or part of) the reclamation effort.
===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle
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Date: 2015-04-29 12:56 am (UTC)From a technical, or at least geographical, standpoint, 'oriental' would even, by definition at least, actually be more accurate, as the term 'asian' now refers to, or people who consider themselves asian trace heritage to, a certain number of countries in Asia and also certain islands in the Pacific, whereas people from Russia, India, Kyrgyzstan, Saudi Arabia, and other such places wouldn't identify themselves as 'asian', despite their countries being on the continent of Asia. And then of course there's islanders such as Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, and native New Zealanders who would differentiate themselves from Caucasian dwellers of the Australian continental region, and are situated east of Australia, who are sometimes lumped in with the demographic.
However...
The replacement term we now use, despite its root in the word 'Asia', has been taken to a modern and relatively recent historical context based in large part in America and western Europe. It can be further broken down to the people in the United States that would have been referred to as 'oriental' in a time of violence, discrimination, marginalization and in some cases even open warfare, and a broader, common historical context of European colonial rule and conflict, such as British and French colonial pressure, incursions, and control of southeast Asian entities such as Vietnam, Indochina areas, Hong Kong, etc., (Thailand was, in fact, the only southeast Asian country to successfully resist all pressure and attempts at colonization, and even they were forced to cede territory.) as well as United States interference when it became a major world power. The *timing* might seem arbitrarily recent, but culture moves and changes at its own pace. Within the living memory of many, 'oriental' was used right beside the ching-chong-chinaman stereotypes.
So, it's not arbitrary. 'Oriental' is disfavored with modern, recent, and ancient history in mind. 'Asian' happens to be the inclusive term that rose to replace terminology that was chosen by what's now considered the western powers new and old. For each of us, both these terms encompass a chunk of history and cultural development, both important. Understanding the distinction has become a commonly held gesture of respect, and ignoring the distinction is a commonly held gesture of disrespect. The asian demographic is large, and some may react differently to it. Some may not even be aware of this distinction, especially if they don't speak english. If you called me 'oriental', I'd think it somewhere between quaint and mildly annoying. If you called a Vietnamese man who was formerly VC 'oriental', or a chinese immigrant old enough to remember the 50s (which was not that long ago), they might be angry. I can't speak for terms offensive to other ethnicities, but I'd suspect the story and development is similar there.
Given all the above, Rowan wouldn't call me 'an oriental' for the same reason I wouldn't call her 'whitey'. And she'd probably at least think it was a little strange and awkward if I called her 'an occidental'.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-29 08:25 am (UTC)Why should I care about the anger of a man who fought to enslave South Vietnam to Communists by means of committing horrible atrocities against the South Vietnamese people, any more than I would care about the anger of an former SS man at being called a "Nazi?"
Oh wait, I forgot, the VC got the approval of the correct people, and hence the deaths of villagers who first saw their wives and children raped and hacked to pieces in front of them, and of course those wives and children, are okay and we have no right to condemn the killers.
Gotcha. Dead Jews and Slavs bad, dead Southeast Asians good.
no subject
Date: 2015-04-29 12:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-29 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-29 05:06 pm (UTC)This is very welcome news! Are research scientists investigating this longevity factor? Perhaps one day it can be applied to the betterment of the human race as a whole!
And ... what atrocities? The city of Baltimore has a mostly-black government and a large black component to its police force. Are you saying that the whites of Baltimore ordered the black police officers to be cruel to black people beause they were black people?
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Date: 2015-04-29 03:40 pm (UTC)For what it's worth though, I recently made a trip to Vietnam. My mother was born in Hanoi, and escaped the fall of Saigon with my father, an American airman. With us were a former marine and former army serviceman. We visited a small village, the head of which was former VC, and they all talked.
The Viet Cong were south Vietnamese too, in fact. From their perspective, they were fighting off colonial rule by the French. (And then the Americans, who backed the French.) They believed the then South Vietnamese government to be a tool of the colonials. They fought a guerilla war on their own soil with old AKs and sharp sticks, digging tunnels with baskets and hand picks, against an adversary with overwhelmingly superior forces who bombed their region until it "looked like the moon" to use their words. Militarily, they (and the NVA) lost every fight with staggering casualties, even with the Tet Offensive. This was hardly the Third Reich marching into Poland.
You may not care, and that's fine. But since you seem passionate about this, I like to think that you might have cared if you'd been standing there with us as these men, all of them simple ground soldiers, shook hands. I could share pictures if you like, it was very moving. These days, North and South Vietnamese still discuss the war that has indelibly marked their country to this day. There are still disagreements and different perspectives, but they can do so in a civilized manner, presumably as we do about our own civil war.
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Date: 2015-04-29 05:09 pm (UTC)My problem with the North Vietnamese is that we never made any attempt to capture and punish those culpable for their war crimes. My problem is less than it would otherwise be, because Linebacker left scars in the North which they are still feeling, and a sanguinary warning that even if one wins a war against the United States of America, it may be a bittersweet victory indeed.
Thus should always perish our foes.
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Date: 2015-04-29 03:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-29 04:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-29 05:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-29 01:53 pm (UTC)Y'know, I don't generally see why it's a problem to just use someone's prefered term when talking to them. I don't need to know why they prefer it; that they do is sufficient in most cases.
... I admit, I am not gonna use "African-American" to describe people who aren't American, though. -_- I am pretty sure they wouldn't want me to, even if some third party might consider it the proper appellation.
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Date: 2015-04-29 03:50 pm (UTC)Y'know, I don't generally see why it's a problem to just use someone's prefered term when talking to them. I don't need to know why they prefer it; that they do is sufficient in most cases.
... I admit, I am not gonna use "African-American" to describe people who aren't American, though. -_- I am pretty sure they wouldn't want me to, even if some third party might consider it the proper appellation.
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Date: 2015-04-29 05:10 pm (UTC)You do know there are people who would consider you a "racist" for that?
Yes, I know, that's one of the more egregious manifestations of Only America Is Real in the modern USA.
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Date: 2015-04-29 01:44 pm (UTC)In seriousness, the human tendency towards hyperbole, to attribute negative qualities to members of other groups (whether it's racial or political or by sports team or hobby or WHATEVER) is pretty much at the root of the problem. And we can't say "never do that" because some views actually do merit condemnation. But it'd be nice if people would keep some perspective. A difference of opinion on health care policy is not as serious as one on whether or not gay sex should be punishable by death. x_x
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Date: 2015-04-29 05:21 pm (UTC)*chuckle*
===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle
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Date: 2015-04-29 05:25 pm (UTC)I am pretty sure you missed the point of my comment entirely. Which is that virtually no one in America is advocating my extreme example (taken the distant past) and so shouldn't be treated as if they are.
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Date: 2015-04-29 05:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-04-29 05:18 pm (UTC)Then there are the colleges, and the fund...
===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle