Social Justice Warrior?

[rowyn]

grrm has been writing about the Hugos lately, and one of his side issues has been that he finds the term "SJW" very offensive, and wants "his side" to be called "liberals" or "progressives" instead.

I am fascinated by this, for a couple of reasons. One: I rather like the term "Social Justice Warrior". I prefer "social justice cleric" for myself, but I'm fine with SJW. I find it a convenient term for distinguishing those with a keen interest in social justice and tolerance of diversity in many and varied forms. I know SJW was originally a conservative jab at us, but I thought it had been reclaimed, like "gay" or "queer". The other is that I think of myself as an SJW, but not a liberal or a progressive. So the substitution doesn't work for me. I suppose SJWs could claim "egalitarian" instead, but who would claim to be anti-egalitarian?

Then again, who wants to come out as antisocial injustice pacifists? As insults go, SJW has never had a lot of sting. n_n

EDIT: I've locked comments to this entry, 'cause I'm not enjoying some of the conversation the topic is generating. Y'all feel free to carry on in your own journals if you've more to say. :)

Comments

[octantis.livejournal.com]

Can I cross class to eco-mancer, or am I going to have alignment issues? I don't intend to take the eco-terrorist feats, I don't have the requisites anyway.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I feel like the problem is wrapping other people up in labels. Calling your opposition 'SJWs' emphasizes that they are the mysterious 'them'... You know, the ones who keep good things from happening. We can't have nice things because of 'them'. But the argument keeps morphing, and somewhere down there you just are left with the feeling some people want to rationalize their own bad behavior because of 'them'.

So maybe GRRM's argument is that assigning the SJW labels to 'his side' is wrapping him and others sympathetic to his views in a convenient box which allows their arguments to be dismissed by strawman opinions, i.e. "other people labelled SJWs have said or done these things, you are a SJW, therefore your argument is invalid." It's shoddy thinking. Whereas if he and his side are called 'WorldCon fans' or 'trufans' or whatnot, maybe the other side will stop thinking about them in terms of 'the hated SJWs with whom we have no common cause' and start thinking 'are these actually people with whom we disagree?'

I mean, if people choose to associate themselves with a label that has a well-understood meaning, that's one thing, but assigning labels to people when they didn't choose it is another.

[rowyn]

You should talk to your GM, but sounds legit to me.

[rowyn]

Although might have some conflics depending on what ecomancy you want to promote. A lot of those advocated policies are pretty hard on developing nations.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

When I originally heard it used, years ago, it was definitely an insult. It was used for people who were arguing against theoretical injustice with no actual victims they could point to, against people who had actually been harmed or people trying to protect those who had actually been harmed.

Instead of fighting for an actual person, they were fighting for 'social justice'.

[level-head.livejournal.com]

"tolerance of diversity in many and varied forms"

As long as they're not conservatives/Republicans/"reactionaries". Then the "warrior" side comes out. ];-)

It seems to me that the decisions surrounding what terms are offensive are often fairly arbitrary. Not too long ago, for example, "oriental" became an offensive insult, which many Asians are not up to speed on. "Negro" went through this years ago, but hundreds of organization names have yet to be updated to reflect the New Offensive Reality. Perhaps they are waiting for (or part of) the reclamation effort.

===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle

[rowyn]

But "trufans" != SJW, nor do any of the other alternatives GRRM offered. :/ I say this as someone who identifies as SJW but not liberal or progressive. I mean, fine if someone doesn't like a label and wants a different one. But the different one ought to represent the same traits. And liberal and progressive do not: they imply a whole spectrum of political policies that are not about social justice.

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Well, he proposed that *if* people were talking about politics, *then* it would be appropriate to identify him as a liberal or progressive. *If* people were talking about the Hugos, *then* he should be identified as a WorldCon fan or a trufan. Using SJW for both is just sloppy and shallow thinking.

[zeeth_kyrah]

I find "SJW" to be a broadside cannon, full of paint to be slung at everyone in the social justice movement. Maybe it was originally meant as a jab at people who advocate social justice by mob rule (I'm still figuring this one out)... but it's turned into "anyone who likes this stuff I don't like". In other words, yeah, a strawman.

[octantis.livejournal.com]

I can only speak from my cultural standpoint, but in most cases, it's a matter of historical as well as social context. Originally, 'oriental' just described an origin east of a certain geographical point, just as 'occidental' described anything west of that point, whether this referred to a person, object, concept, or what have you.

From a technical, or at least geographical, standpoint, 'oriental' would even, by definition at least, actually be more accurate, as the term 'asian' now refers to, or people who consider themselves asian trace heritage to, a certain number of countries in Asia and also certain islands in the Pacific, whereas people from Russia, India, Kyrgyzstan, Saudi Arabia, and other such places wouldn't identify themselves as 'asian', despite their countries being on the continent of Asia. And then of course there's islanders such as Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, and native New Zealanders who would differentiate themselves from Caucasian dwellers of the Australian continental region, and are situated east of Australia, who are sometimes lumped in with the demographic.

However...

The replacement term we now use, despite its root in the word 'Asia', has been taken to a modern and relatively recent historical context based in large part in America and western Europe. It can be further broken down to the people in the United States that would have been referred to as 'oriental' in a time of violence, discrimination, marginalization and in some cases even open warfare, and a broader, common historical context of European colonial rule and conflict, such as British and French colonial pressure, incursions, and control of southeast Asian entities such as Vietnam, Indochina areas, Hong Kong, etc., (Thailand was, in fact, the only southeast Asian country to successfully resist all pressure and attempts at colonization, and even they were forced to cede territory.) as well as United States interference when it became a major world power. The *timing* might seem arbitrarily recent, but culture moves and changes at its own pace. Within the living memory of many, 'oriental' was used right beside the ching-chong-chinaman stereotypes.

So, it's not arbitrary. 'Oriental' is disfavored with modern, recent, and ancient history in mind. 'Asian' happens to be the inclusive term that rose to replace terminology that was chosen by what's now considered the western powers new and old. For each of us, both these terms encompass a chunk of history and cultural development, both important. Understanding the distinction has become a commonly held gesture of respect, and ignoring the distinction is a commonly held gesture of disrespect. The asian demographic is large, and some may react differently to it. Some may not even be aware of this distinction, especially if they don't speak english. If you called me 'oriental', I'd think it somewhere between quaint and mildly annoying. If you called a Vietnamese man who was formerly VC 'oriental', or a chinese immigrant old enough to remember the 50s (which was not that long ago), they might be angry. I can't speak for terms offensive to other ethnicities, but I'd suspect the story and development is similar there.

Given all the above, Rowan wouldn't call me 'an oriental' for the same reason I wouldn't call her 'whitey'. And she'd probably at least think it was a little strange and awkward if I called her 'an occidental'.

[whitefangedwolf.livejournal.com]

I've noticed that "Social Justice Warrior" is often used to refer to those people online who "fight for social justice" by shooting first and asking questions later, if at all.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

If you called a Vietnamese man who was formerly VC 'oriental' ... they might be angry.

Why should I care about the anger of a man who fought to enslave South Vietnam to Communists by means of committing horrible atrocities against the South Vietnamese people, any more than I would care about the anger of an former SS man at being called a "Nazi?"

Oh wait, I forgot, the VC got the approval of the correct people, and hence the deaths of villagers who first saw their wives and children raped and hacked to pieces in front of them, and of course those wives and children, are okay and we have no right to condemn the killers.

Gotcha. Dead Jews and Slavs bad, dead Southeast Asians good.

[arpad.livejournal.com]

I rather like the term "Social Justice Warrior". I prefer "social justice cleric" for myself, but I'm fine with SJW.

Ha! I should friend you just for this line. In fact I just did.

[medicmsh.livejournal.com]

What are the prereqs for SJR (Social Justice Rogue)? And if I crit my thievery rolls, can I pickpocket Hostile Buzzwords for later re-purposing and/or delivery to the nearest active volcano? Asking for a friend.

[rowyn]

Then those terms work for labeling GRRM. They still don't work for labeling me. And I clearly need a new label, because this post has convinced me SJW doesn't work. x_x

[stryck.livejournal.com]

While your invective may be on point for that example, the discussion is wider terminology. You have scored on a technicality but will likely lose your audience and the game with your method.

[rowyn]

But "trufans" != SJW, nor do any of the other alternatives GRRM offered. :/ I say this as someone who identifies as SJW but not liberal or progressive. I mean, fine if someone doesn't like a label and wants a different one. But the different one ought to represent the same traits. And liberal and progressive do not: they imply a whole spectrum of political policies that are not about social justice.

[rowyn]

Obviously, when I use the term SJW, I mean it in a positive sense. (I am one!) I could drop the W and just say "SJ folk"; people'd probably know what i mean. Truth is, I don't talk about this stuff much explicitly anyway, so it rarely comes up that I need a term for "people who believe social injustice is still a serious problem throughout the world.".

[rowyn]

Oh, yes, it definitely started as an insult. But there was a lot of activity on my twitter feed about how "social justice warrior" sounds pretty cool, and jokes about other adventuring classes: I thought'd lost the stigma.

I daresay I was wrong, and I am sorry to learn that. :/

[rowyn]

You know me, sir: always bagging on conservatives and Republicans! :)

In seriousness, the human tendency towards hyperbole, to attribute negative qualities to members of other groups (whether it's racial or political or by sports team or hobby or WHATEVER) is pretty much at the root of the problem. And we can't say "never do that" because some views actually do merit condemnation. But it'd be nice if people would keep some perspective. A difference of opinion on health care policy is not as serious as one on whether or not gay sex should be punishable by death. x_x

[rowyn]

"Occidental" certainly doesn't have the same stereotypes attached that "oriental" does, but it's not in much use any more, true.

Y'know, I don't generally see why it's a problem to just use someone's prefered term when talking to them. I don't need to know why they prefer it; that they do is sufficient in most cases.

... I admit, I am not gonna use "African-American" to describe people who aren't American, though. -_- I am pretty sure they wouldn't want me to, even if some third party might consider it the proper appellation.

[okojosan.livejournal.com]

No more than you should care about the anger of the whites who are being called racist. After all, they committed the same atrocities against the Native Americans and are still committing atrocities against their former slaves.

[octantis.livejournal.com]

What you think of a VC isn't really relative. You can care what he thinks, or not, it's your prerogative. The point I'm making is about the term 'oriental', and a VC guy happens to be one of the examples, because they're alive and still exist. I'm not sure where I said 'yay dead Southeast Asians'.

For what it's worth though, I recently made a trip to Vietnam. My mother was born in Hanoi, and escaped the fall of Saigon with my father, an American airman. With us were a former marine and former army serviceman. We visited a small village, the head of which was former VC, and they all talked.

The Viet Cong were south Vietnamese too, in fact. From their perspective, they were fighting off colonial rule by the French. (And then the Americans, who backed the French.) They believed the then South Vietnamese government to be a tool of the colonials. They fought a guerilla war on their own soil with old AKs and sharp sticks, digging tunnels with baskets and hand picks, against an adversary with overwhelmingly superior forces who bombed their region until it "looked like the moon" to use their words. Militarily, they (and the NVA) lost every fight with staggering casualties, even with the Tet Offensive. This was hardly the Third Reich marching into Poland.

You may not care, and that's fine. But since you seem passionate about this, I like to think that you might have cared if you'd been standing there with us as these men, all of them simple ground soldiers, shook hands. I could share pictures if you like, it was very moving. These days, North and South Vietnamese still discuss the war that has indelibly marked their country to this day. There are still disagreements and different perspectives, but they can do so in a civilized manner, presumably as we do about our own civil war.

[mosinging1986.livejournal.com]

The fact that leftist actually claim (and believe!) they are for "tolerance of diversity" is hilarious in and of itself! Leftists consistently demonstrate that they will tolerate NO view that doesn't fall in line with theirs!

Also, the term social justice is a misnomer anyway. There's justice and there is injustice. What does "social justice" even mean?

[rowyn]

"Occidental" certainly doesn't have the same stereotypes attached that "oriental" does, but it's not in much use any more, true.

Y'know, I don't generally see why it's a problem to just use someone's prefered term when talking to them. I don't need to know why they prefer it; that they do is sufficient in most cases.

... I admit, I am not gonna use "African-American" to describe people who aren't American, though. -_- I am pretty sure they wouldn't want me to, even if some third party might consider it the proper appellation.

[rowyn]

Hey, Jordan -- would you please be polite in leaving comments on my blog posts? I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

[rowyn]

Hey, Jordan -- would you please be polite in leaving comments on my blog posts? I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

I was not aware that any of the slaveowning whites or former slaves were still alive! Since slavery ended everywhere in the United States of America in 1863 and the Confederacy was conqured in 1865, , if one was born just before the surrender of the last Confederate forces he would have to be 150 (!) years old, which exceeds the known maximum human lifespan by about 25%!!

This is very welcome news! Are research scientists investigating this longevity factor? Perhaps one day it can be applied to the betterment of the human race as a whole!

And ... what atrocities? The city of Baltimore has a mostly-black government and a large black component to its police force. Are you saying that the whites of Baltimore ordered the black police officers to be cruel to black people beause they were black people?

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

I have some sympathy too for the Germans who fought in World War II. And I'm descended from Polish and Russian Jews, and the Germans killed the part of my family that didn't emigrate to America.

My problem with the North Vietnamese is that we never made any attempt to capture and punish those culpable for their war crimes. My problem is less than it would otherwise be, because Linebacker left scars in the North which they are still feeling, and a sanguinary warning that even if one wins a war against the United States of America, it may be a bittersweet victory indeed.

Thus should always perish our foes.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

... I admit, I am not gonna use "African-American" to describe people who aren't American, though. -_- I am pretty sure they wouldn't want me to, even if some third party might consider it the proper appellation.

You do know there are people who would consider you a "racist" for that?

Yes, I know, that's one of the more egregious manifestations of Only America Is Real in the modern USA.

[jordan179.livejournal.com]

Even funnier is the name of the NAACP. Which means "National Association of Colored People :D

[level-head.livejournal.com]

Context is big in that regard; the name would have a completely different meaning in South Africa, and would exclude those who are members in the US.

Then there are the colleges, and the fund...

===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle

[level-head.livejournal.com]

"In seriousness, the human tendency towards hyperbole ... whether or not gay sex should be punishable by death."

*chuckle*

===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle

[rowyn]

Hey, Jordan -- would you please be polite in leaving comments on my blog posts? I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

[rowyn]

...

I am pretty sure you missed the point of my comment entirely. Which is that virtually no one in America is advocating my extreme example (taken the distant past) and so shouldn't be treated as if they are.