Questions on Fictional Genderqueer Character

[rowyn]

In the book I just finished drafting, The Moon Etherium, shapeshifting is trivial, and many people in the setting change their appearance casually, including changing their gender. Gender is mostly about aesthetics, but gender differences are considered a fun thing to play with.

One of the major characters, Jino, likes to present variously as either male or female. Jino has a mild preference for male forms; let's say Jino has historically chosen to present as male about 75% of the time.

When Jino is present in a scene, the narrator and characters interacting with Jino use the pronouns appropriate to Jino's current gender presentation. When Jino presents as a woman, everyone uses "she", and when Jino presents as a man, everyone uses "he". I'm reasonably happy with the way this part works.

Jino is the parent to one of my main characters, and that character variously calls Jino either "Dad" or "Mom", as appropriate.  I'm a little squidgier on this one; I am concerned that it will confuse the reader, especially since the character's other parent, Ele, is also a significant character and consistently presents as female. (Ele is never called "Mom"; she's referred to as "mother" or by title).

There are a number of conversations that take place where other characters are talking about Jino while Jino's not present, and the characters have not particularly consistent in what pronouns they use for Jino.  I haven't come up with a good solution for this issue.  Is the character who only met Jino once while Jino was presenting as female going to consistently use 'she'? Or 'he' because the son usually calls Jino "Dad"? I don't really want to use "they"; I've been using "they" for characters using nonbinary gender presentations, and Jino presents unambiguously as either male or female. Moreover, it wouldn't get me out of "should the son call Jino "Dad" when Jino isn't around, even if Jino was female the last time the son saw Jino?" issue.  I don't think there's a good gender-neutral parental nickname? If someone knows of one, please let me know!

Anyway, looking for thoughts on the topic, particularly from folks who identify as genderqueer themselves. Thanks!

Edit: Members of this society learned relatively recently how to shapeshift. Their language still has words for gender and still has pronouns for gender, and people still use these. Because seriously, reinventing a language that has gender-based pronouns to not use them is painful. You think getting English speakers to accept a non-gendered third person pronoun is bad? Try getting them to ditch "she" and "he" entirely. Distinguishing pronoun antecedents becomes twice as hard. Yes, it's a stupid arbitrary way to categorize people, but from a language standpoint, arbitrary categories are better than no categories.

Also, my book is written in English, so I am going to use English pronouns, regardless of what the characters in the story are used to.

Comments

[elstrom99.livejournal.com]

Not genderqueer, Rowyn. But have several friends who are, and a couple of those actually are parents.

One in particular comes to mind, "Jean". Her daughter and son both call her Dad all the time, because she is their biological father. Yet, when they speak of her when she is not around, and when they are not specifically referring to her role as their biological father, they always refer to her as her gender expression... SHE is this or that, HER favorite color is turquoise.

When she walks in the room, they say "Hi, Dad!" I have heard them introduce her as "Dad, this is my friend Mary, Mary, this is my Dad. She's a carpenter." (She is!)

Don't know if that helps.

[rowyn]

Oooh, data point! Cool, thank you. :)

[sythyry.livejournal.com]

I'm genderqueer and elsewise queer.

Consider giving the child a single title for Jino different from the one the character uses for Ele. E.g., gay couples in real life are likely to have a Dad and a Poppa, or a Mom and a Mumsy, rather than two Dads or two Moms.

I don't know of a good gender-neutral one, but you could make one up: Pamma or something.

In a setting where people regularly change gender, using gendered pronouns at all is strange to me. It'd be like using pronouns for long vs. short haired people. Are you considering your story to be told in translation, so you'd do the best-understandable English thing — maybe referring to Jino by the gender the reader last saw — even if the actual language does not use gendered pronouns? That's how I do World Tree — with the proviso that occasionally the WT pronouns matter and I explain what pronoun was used. Or is the language an English analog, despite it not fitting very well? Or what?

[rowyn]

The society has only had gender-changing be trivial for about 300 years, and both the culture and the language are much older than that. So I think the characters are genuinely using gendered pronouns, because language changes slowly. (Especially for these folks, who've been immortal for the last two hundred years). Their language does have four different gender pronouns, which I'm translating as he/she/it/they, for male/female/neuter/non-trinary. (This may be unduly confusing on my part.)

I am sure the society has gender-neutral parent terms.

Oh, and not everyone changes genders. It is a thing that some people do and others don't and no one in the setting really cares. I don't think people in the society much care if people get their pronouns right, even. But people in my world will, and I am writing for this world, so ... trying to be reasonable.

But in any case, the story is told-in-translation and I have to do the best-understandable-English thing. I am not keen on making up new words to use instead of using English equivalents. :/

I kind of like Elestrom99's suggestion above, of just using "Dad" + presentation-appropriate pronouns. I will see what other suggestions I get on that one, but I think the point both of you share is that a child is going to think of the title (whether it's Mom/Dad/Pama/Mapa/whatever) as the parent's name, not as a pronoun, and so the name wouldn't change. (Child does have a distinct title for Other Parent, regardless: "Mother". He makes a point early on that "she's not my mom." They do not have the best relationship.)

Still not sure on the whole "what pronoun to use for Jino when Jino is not in the scene" issue.

[lunarflight.livejournal.com]

I will be using he for Jino as a pronoun because that seems to be his majority form and they/them is wrong for that character.

Since gender doesn't matter in the society you've constructed, Jino may be Dad even when Jino is a woman and that may not be dissonant at all for the culture. Mom and Dad don't have to be linked to the gender the parent is presenting as. What it depends on is how society constructs its notions of fatherhood and motherhood, as well as how the characters themselves conceptualize those words. What is the societal implication of mother versus father in this world?

Father versus mother might be a construct of how children are born (father as the donor, mother as the carrier). Or it might be a role issue, where who is considered father or mother is based on interaction. Drawing for our gender roles (though you can actually get quite creative here if you want to), mother could refer to the one who is primarily in charge care giving, while the father is enforcer and provider. Thus, which parent you refer to as mother or father depends on how the family is structured.

If those roles aren't linked and anchored culturally to roles either in the birth of the child or how the child is raised, then I would say that the choice of using mother or father (or mom or dad) would depend entirely on preference. And it sounds like Jino's preference is fluid, so whether mom or dad is used would change depending on Jino's presentation.

It sounds like the gist of this question though is the gender confusion when talking to other people. Now, I have had gender confused conversations with people, where we refer to the same person but with different pronouns (the person in question was non-binary and told me they didn't care what pronouns were used). And it was confusing, but so long as knew who we were talking about, it wasn't THAT confusing. The pronouns changed, but the person we were referring to didn't. It was more of a "you're using what pronouns?" reaction rather than a "Who are we talking about?" confusion.

In a society where people change gender regularly, it probably wouldn't be weird at all for people to use differing gender pronouns for fluid individuals. It might be remarked on casually in conversation if differing pronouns are used and it is something remarkable ("Oh, is Jino a woman right now? Been a while since I saw her as a woman"), but otherwise wouldn't be a conversation stopper. If it's accepted in society, it isn't weird for your characters when pronouns change.

You can also always make up an affectionate nickname for Jino used by his children. Much like grandparent nicknames are all over the place, you might have a nickname that is used for Jino like Pop or Pa that is more gender neutral.

[rowyn]

If I understand correctly, what you describe is pretty much what I went with in the original draft. :) (Mother/father don't have very distinct roles, so Mom/Dad as used based on presentation. The characters varied in what pronouns they used for Jino when talking to other people, but they knew who they meant, and it's not a topic of particular sensitivity for them.)

Mostly I'm concerned that since I'm writing for a modern American audience to whom gender IS a topic of particular sensitivity, readers will have expectations of greater fussiness about getting it "right". :/ Mph. I shall continue to listen and ponder.

[lunarflight.livejournal.com]

Yeah, from what you've described, I don't see anything that pops out to me as offensive and a major flag for the non-binary community. I don't have my finger on the pulse of the non-binary community, though I identify as agender myself. But the impression I get is that there isn't a huge consensus of what is "right." If a person wants to identify as non-binary, then they are welcome to do that in whatever form is most comfortable for them.

The one BIG rule, though, is to be respectful of whatever pronoun someone feels most comfortable with. Whether that's someone wanting they/them, xe/xem, pronouns that change every other use, or male pronouns while wearing a frilly dress and lipstick, you respect their pronouns. If you're not sure of somebody's pronouns, you ask, politely. (And I mean, you ask their pronoun choice, not what is in their pants. That's none of your business, though I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that.) (I like to phrase that particular question, "Hey, can I ask a personal question? What are your preferred pronouns?")

It sounds like Jino, by our parlance, would describe as genderfluid and therefore changing pronouns based on his gender choice that day would be most respectful. As long as its established and consistent within the world and handled as a part of Jino, I don't see anything worth panicking about.

[rowyn]

I really like the trend of putting one's preferred pronouns in bios/sigs/etc. Because I don't care what gender people are but it is convenient to know what pronouns to use for them. :)

[firecat]

I'm genderqueer/nonbinary and here via tagryn.

I think in a society where sex/gender does not essentially affect what roles a person can take or how other people treat a person, and where a person could change between man and woman as easily as they change their clothes, pronouns that designate gender would not exist or would be used only in very specific circumstances (e.g. sexual or reproductive circumstances). In your world, maybe a person's pronoun would be based on something other than gender — age? parental status? some other status? background? name? Or maybe a person would pick one the way they pick a name or an honorific? If you specifically want to write scenes where Jino is referred to with different English gender pronouns depending on whether they look like a man or a woman, you could maybe say that Jino has requested people do this although others consider it a bit eccentric.

[rowyn]

Members of this society learned relatively recently how to shapeshift; they're not part of a species that never had innate sex differences. Their language still has words for gender and still has pronouns for gender, and people still use them.

Also, my book is written in English, so I am going to use English pronouns, regardless of what the characters in the story are used to. :/

[level-head.livejournal.com]

Well, I am (as you know) heteronormative, i.e., straight. I see that I am a minority here, but at least you can get a comment from the tiny population I represent. ]:-)

It seems to me that Jino would have a consistent name-substitute from his offspring, probably "Dad" from what you described. Dad's appearance could change, but his role to his offspring would not; it's historical fact.

But the pronouns would become female when "Dad" does; then revert to male when Jino's not present as this seems to be Jino's choice.

Others would use pronouns based on what they perceive Jino to be from their perspective. When Jino is present, and gender presentation is clear (might not be true), Jino would get pronouns appropriate to the presentation and lingering for some time thereafter (which is when pronouns are more likely to be used, anyway). But after Jino has been gone awhile, I'd expect those that had been in contact to revert to the pronoun appropriate to Jino's usual presentation to them. No doubt there are some to whom Jino has always been female; these would not start using "he" unless they'd seen "him" recently, or his presentation to them becomes steadily male.

Jino seems unconcerned with all of this. And it may help identify a character's thinking if they are consistently using "she/her," because it reminds the reader that this is the way that character really thinks, and it's a difference that may make a difference, plot-wise.

Or so it seems to me.

===|==============/ Keith DeHavelle

[rowyn]

The "how would others see Jino" question is interesting, because I'm not sure which would be stronger, the tendency to use the same pronoun that the person/people you're talking to use, or to use the pronoun that matches the appearance the last time you saw them. @_@

And yeah, the characters in the story care a little about gender, but probably none of them care nearly as much as the average American would. :D

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

If I met Jino as a female I'd probably subconsciously want to call her 'she' from then on even if every other meeting was with her as a male. I don't think everyone has the same problem, though.

Sticking with 'Dad' even when she's a girl sounds reasonable. So does making up a non-gendered parent word. Or using 'Parent'? Although that's usually used to denote a family with no sentiment which is probably not appropriate. Switching back and forth could work but would sound like he's being snarky.

[rowyn]

Yeah, I'm leaning towards using "Dad" consistently, although there's kind of a cute comment in the story explaining why he uses both "Dad" and "Mom". "Parent" just doesn't sound affectionate, the way "Dad" and "Mom" and suchlike do.

[nekomavin.livejournal.com]

This sounds like a very interesting book, and I'm looking forward to the day I get to buy it.

My first reaction to Dad/Mom was to think that a child would mostly have a singular familiar term for their parent. But that's rooted in our reality, where a child wouldn't see their parent change back and forth regularly. In a world where the character's father is sometimes male and sometimes female, changing at whim... I can totally see both "Dad" and "Mom" getting used depending on the day (especially if the child's mother is distant/not caring for them/not there). Depending on how quickly they can change shape, I can even imagine playing peekaboo, alternating appearances.

It seems to me that a child growing up with that kind of fluidity would become well versed in knowing when to use which name/pronoun.

Given 200 years of stagnation and maladaption to the reality of shapechanging, I can easily imagine a range of behaviours around pronouns for people who you can't know the current gender of. Personally, I'd probably cut down on pronoun use and stick to using using Jino's name as much as I could instead. (Out of fear for the sheer mortification of having used 'him' several times then having Jino walk into the room, obviously female. Natives probably are used to that, and fluidly shift from assumed to presenting gender without comment.)

I'd love to see a dynamic where multiple people with different attitudes to the "what pronoun to assume when Jino is not here" question are talking about Jino, some using he, and some using she... and whichever one is the outlier shifting over to the common usage of the group without comment. I can see how it would be confusing to read, though.

(Not genderqueer, but I have written enough (mediocre) shapeshifting fiction to have considered the issue... Only one RL acquaintance has transitioned, and I haven't seen her in years, so I'm not really in tune with the politics of it.)

[rowyn]

Especially if the child's mother is distant/not caring for them/not there

This is exactly the case, and the one reason I'm still thinking about having the son use both terms. :)

[nekomavin.livejournal.com]

I think that could be really sweet, done well.