A-List Superheroes

[rowyn]

Lut asked me the other day why there's specifically complaints about Wonder Woman not getting a movie, as opposed to any other female superheroes. My theory is that it's because Wonder Woman is the only female superhero with strong brand recognition outside of the fandom. At first I thought that the men heavily outweighed the women on the A-List, and then I realized: no, the A-list is really short. Really, really short.

This is the A-List:

Superman
Batman
Wonder Woman
Spider-man
The Hulk

Aaaand we're done.

Really, that's it. Marvel/Disney is working hard to change that, but Iron Man and Thor are not (yet) A-Listers. Even Wolverine, who's a huge fan favorite, is not an A-List superhero that everybody knows. I bet most Americans can't name three X-Men, and that includes Professor X. Until Guardians of the Galaxy came out, even I didn't know the names of any of its protagonists (though I did recognize Thanos).

There are a few others that might be borderline:

Captain America
Robin
Batgirl
Supergirl
She-Hulk
Catwoman

These are the sorts of characters that people outside the fandom know exist. But they don't care or know much about them. I didn't know Captain America's origin story until I saw the movie. Three of them are "the girl version of an A-lister", which as a reason for mattering is meh. Catwoman is known as a supervillain or at best an antihero.

Other candidates? Fantastic Four? They just don't have the kind of presence in the popular imagination that Superman or even Spider-Man does.

I kinda want to see market research on this, but asking my friends doesn't work as well on this one, because even most of you who never read superhero comics are still peripherally involved with the fandom. :) Still, I'm curious which heroes you think are on the A-List, or if anyone feels like the recent success of various Avengers films has moved any of those characters onto it.

Comments

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

*cheers Catwoman on* You go, grrl! Bring the meow-storm!

I do think Marvel's superhero movies have promoted their respective heroes. More people are probably aware of Thor and Captain America due to their movies now than ever before.

As far as A-list heroes go... Hmm, you left off the X-men, particularly Wolverine and the Professor Xavier/Magneto duo.

Deadpool might be a new cult favorite character to watch. The Watchmen probably bear an honorable mention due to their movie, though I suspect most people couldn't name any of them individually except maybe Rorschach. I bet most people think of Dr. Manhattan as 'the blue guy'.

[rowyn]

I really don't think any of the X-Men are A-listers: not the team as a whole, not Wolvie/Professor X/Magneto. Maybe I should; maybe their stock has risen with the films. But I don't feel like they have anything like the name recognition that Superman/Batman/Spider-Man/the Hulk/Wonder Woman have. Let me put it this way: people who have nothing to do with the superhero genre -- who not only don't read comics, but don't watch the movies or have an interest in sf/f at all, are still going to recognize those five characters and names. Those five are part of the culture even beyond their genre. The X-Men are important to people who like the superhero genre, even to those who don't read comics but go for other superhero media, but they aren't widely known outside of it.

I don't think the Watchmen or Deadpool are known to people who aren't fans of the genre

[tuftears.livejournal.com]

Okay, fair enough about Watchmen and Deadpool, though the Watchmen did come out as a movie, but I still argue that the X-Men did succeed in beating out the Superman movie franchise for box office, so there has to be some name recognition accruing. ;)

It may be just that geeks are no longer as small a market as they used to be.

[whitefangedwolf.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm all over the board in this comment, so it may feel a bit disjointed.

Frankly, the challenge of making a Wonder Woman movie is that she's a super hero sex symbol. It feels like there's a group of people who love to complain about how Wonder Woman's too sexy and then turn around and complain that she never gets a movie. Now that there's a Justice League movie coming soon, it seems that DC is testing the waters to see if they can make a movie depiction of Wonder Woman that's generally acceptable enough to give her her own movie.

I'd take your borderline list and drop Captain America, Batgirl, Supergirl, and She-Hulk from it. They may be visually recognized somewhat widely but most people don't really know anything about them as characters. In that regard they are similar to Wolverine.

Robin's questionable since there's been a number of different characters who have worn the mantle of Robin and the average person would describe him just as Batman's kid sidekick.

Catwoman has the clear recognizability advantage with her iconic depictions and being somewhat well known as a master thief that's romantically entangled with Batman. I agree that she's not generally considered a superhero. I think of her as an anti-hero along with Wolverine.

My impression is that the Avengers movies has bumped Iron Man from being virtually unknown by the public to being somewhat recognizable. In fact, I expect that, before the movies, a lot of people would have though that Iron Man was a robot.

Thor's case is odd since his mythological source is iconic so he's been fairly identifiable visually but most people couldn't have said much about him as a superhero. Ironically, movie Thor is better known as a superhero but less visually distinctive.

[rowyn]

I have a hard time figuring out where the X-Men and Wolverine go, in part because the X-Men are actually the superheroes I know best -- I used to read all Marvel's mutant titles. So I keep falling back on "before I knew anything about comics, which superheroes did I know about?" And Wolverine was never one of them. Captain America has an iconic name and look, while Wolverine is just ... some guy with claws and sideburns.

But there've been several X-Men movies, a Wolverine movie, and an X-Men cartoon, so maybe those have raised Wolverine's profile above Captain America. Although Cap's been in nearly as many movies at this point. He doesn't have the cartoon exposure, but I feel like Captain America gets a boost because he looks and sounds like what people expect of a superhero. So, I dunno.

Batgirl, Supergirl, and She-Hulk were characters I've always known about because I knew about their male counterparts. I suspect more people would recognize them than would recognize Wolverine or Magneto, but you're right that it's a very superficial knowledge. Wolverine certainly has more fans than any of the those three, even if he doesn't have the name recognition. Robin's the same way: everyone knows he's Batman's kid sidekick, but nothing beyond that.

I don't think Thor's mythological origins make him visually identifiable, because the Norse god is a red-headed hot-tempered guy with a beard, and basically nothing like the Marvel character. It does give Thor better name recognition, though.

[level-head.livejournal.com]

"He doesn't have the cartoon exposure..."

It's funny. Just before I read this line, the theme song from the Captain America cartoon was playing in my head.

Happy Birthday, Lady Rowyn!

I am not a prolific typist anymore; my hands are reduced in function, which I hope is temporary. But I did not want this occasion to slip past.

Best wishes and many happy returns.

===|==============/ Level Head

[rowyn]

Thank you, dear sir. I am sorry to hear about your hands, though! D: I hope they improve soon.

I never saw the Captain America cartoon! I guess it didn't see much in the way of reruns when I was a kid.

[level-head.livejournal.com]

This is a collection of the first seven episodes. The very beginning of this shows a surprising match between the movie and the cartoon. Almost as if they used the cartoon as a storyboard, then filled in some "human interest" parts that didn't show up in the cartoon but fit well with the story:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfLGDDK-2bc

Yes, the nerve damage is annoying and tedious, but I will walk again.

===|==============/ Level Head

[archangelbeth]

*names Storm and... um... Emma Frost? And... something Gray?*

>_>

I don't know if they're A-list at all, though. I think you're right: Wonder Woman and Catwoman are the ones with the most mindshare, and Catwoman's an anti-hero at best.

[sebkha.livejournal.com]

For some irrelevant reason I'm trying to think of the british counterpart to your A-list. Doctor Who and James Bond?

[sf-reader.livejournal.com]

Despite the amount of play he has had, it is hard for me to think of the Hulk as A List.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

I'd expect the B-list to include everyone from the old Saturday morning cartoons. Aquaman. Iceman or whatever he was called. Jan and Zana and Gleep. Apache Chief.

Also, I find it kind of odd to think of Wonder Woman as being on your A-list, because I only know about her the same way I know about Jan and Zana. Superman, Batman, Spider Man, yeah, they're big. Is she really, though?

[alltoseek.livejournal.com]

Shazam!

[jordangreywolf.livejournal.com]

My boss showed up at a company meeting showing off her "Wonder Woman" beach wrap on a lark. She's familiar with Wonder Woman, and she's NOT a comic-book geek.

I think "Wonder Woman" is a bit more broadly recognized largely because when DC Comics is involved in licensed merchandise, it's quite often Batman and Superman as the primary polar choices for male superhero icons, and Wonder Woman gets thrown in for a little variety and token gender balance.

I strongly suspect that the typical person who's the least bit aware of pop culture would have a rough familiarity with the origin story of Superman, or that of Batman. I think he or she might have a little more trouble with Wonder Woman, and would probably be at pains to name any of Wonder Woman's arch-enemies. (Superman? Lex Luthor, of course. Batman? Joker. Maybe a few others for bonus points. Wonder Woman? Uhhhhhhh....)

But all the same, I think she has a bit of VISUAL recognition. Alas, it's recognition as a pale, dark-haired beauty running around in a swimsuit. With Batman, you can change his tights and underwear-on-the-outside into a sort of form-fitting suit of armor, and he's still Batman. But Wonder Woman seems to be inevitably tied to showing off an awful lot of skin.

Now, is it enough to sell a movie? Maybe. But I regret that when I saw some posters for the Superman vs. Batman movie that showed WONDER WOMAN ... my first thought was that they'd updated the look of Xena, Warrior Princess. And I wasn't the only one. Oops. They might need to work a little more on that.

[rowyn]

I actually think you could do an iconic, recognizably Wonder Woman costume without showing any skin. You need the tiara, the bracers, the lasso, and the American-flag + golden eagle color scheme, definitely, to trigger a "that's Wonder Woman" reaction from the average non-fan. But I don't think it has to be the bathing suit. You could give her blue-with-stars pants and a zip-front red jacket with the gold eagle over the chest, and as long as she had the assorted accessories, people would know that was supposed to be Wonder Woman. Even just her face, with the tiara and the wavy dark hair, is pretty iconic.

[jordangreywolf.livejournal.com]

I have to agree there. We've had Batman and Superman in outfits where it's no longer "underwear on the outside," and we can tell who they are pretty easily. Green Lantern's outfit has gone through a few changes, but as long as he's green, as a partial face mask, and has that big stylized "lantern" logo on the front, anyone who knows Green Lantern is going to get it.

I liked the Jim Lee redesign costume Wonder Woman had for a short while.



Note: I don't think it's the best example of the way to keep the character recognizable, but I still like it.

I got a bit ticked when there would be reactive fan art where artists would "improve" the design (in short: never mind all the iconography; it's really just NO PANTS). If anyone's going to get all particular about "NOOOOO! You cannot cover up the thighs!" then I'd point out that Wonder Woman ORIGINALLY was running around in a dress.



(It's a bit silly-looking, but I have to say that at least partly it's the artist to blame.)

Now, as for the movie version...



I can see some reason for this, because it at least tries a little to get in a little of that Greek myth look ... a little ... but I'm not seeing much red or blue here. Maybe that's sensible, in that an updated Wonder Woman shouldn't necessarily look like she's wearing American flag colors, but if that's the case, we at least need a little more gold and emphasis of the eagle/W elements. This particular image is just too sepia-toned, I think, for those decorative elements (I can see that they are IN the costume...) to stand out properly.

[jordangreywolf.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah -- a mild tangent, but have you ever seen the "JL8" comic by Yale Stewart?

(EDIT: Argh! Sample image deleted. None of the examples I found seem to work as embedded images, thanks to some sort of internet voodoo.)

It's a cute, superhero-themed comic ... with a bunch of recognizable DC superheroes and superheroines ... who just happen to be in grade school.

[rowyn]

I have! I started reading it juuuust when it stopped updating, actually. One or two new ones have been added since I started reading it some time ago, but that's it. :/

[jordangreywolf.livejournal.com]

A few superheroines I think might be worthwhile as movie-grade material, but if I had to pick ONE that I think was the best contender, it would be Storm.

She's been portrayed in movies before, but only as part of the X-Men franchise. However, she's distinctive-looking, and sometimes has a costume that's not embarrassing (it depends upon the artist and the iteration) -- sometimes she'd be wearing something more dignified than "spandex" or "superheroine costume-scraps." Also, in any iteration, she has powers that I'd think of as quite dramatic.

If Wolverine can go solo, why not Storm? People may not name her if asked "Name the superheroes you know," but I think if there were a movie poster featuring her, it'd trigger some recognition.

As a kid, I remember occasionally flipping through comics and seeing different depictions of Storm. Sometimes, she was awesome. Sometimes, it was embarrassing. But the same could be said for any number of comicbook heroes and heroines, I think.

Incidentally, I could name quite a few other superheroines who are part of a TEAM that has made it to popular animated TV shows, or even to movies, but many of them I just don't think of as ready-made and distinctive enough to carry a story on their own. Storm, I think could manage it. Jean Grey's whole arc really seems heavily tied in with the X-Men as a whole; on her own, "psychic girl" just isn't that visually exciting, and the whole "phoenix" business is too inextricably tied to her clashes with former allies, I think.

Kitty Pryde ... can pass through solid objects. That's USEFUL, but it doesn't sound like something to build a whole story around. She really just belongs on a team. It was pretty awesome when she had her own "shoulder-dragon," though. :)

Rogue is distinctive, too, but her very power pretty much requires her to be in a world shared with other superheroes and superheroines, so she's practically doomed to be part of an ensemble.

Over in the realm of Teen Titans (noteworthy for having a reasonably popular TV cartoon for a while), there would be Raven and Starfire. Raven, I could possibly see as a stand-alone heroine, though a movie featuring her would venture more into supernatural territory. Starfire ... eh ... I think the problem is that while her TV cartoon version might be seen as a decent enough character, her portrayal in the comics, especially in the current DC incarnation (the "New 52" universe, last I checked) is downright offensive. (TV version = nice, naive superpowered space alien. Comics version = oversexed, cold creature with the attention span and emotional depth of a goldfish. Not nice.)

But this is not to counter your basic point: Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman get the merch in the DC universe, OCCASIONALLY joined by other "Justice League" characters from time to time. But that's just it: I think the reason they're so "iconic" is because of how long we've been saturated with assorted products that feature them like some sort of triumvirate. Superman and Batman are the big draws, and Wonder Woman just sort of gets thrown in for a bit of variety.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

'Oversexed' for Starfire is kind of exaggerating. She has a boyfriend that she lives with, and they sometimes make out.

She is cold and bitter, though. It's annoying.

I started reading that series because I liked her in the Teen Titans cartoon, but I'm probably only still reading it for Arsenal, who's a lot more fun.

[rowyn]

... I know I personally would enjoy "oversexed, nice and naive" over "cold and bitter" regardless of the sexuality level. c_c

[jordangreywolf.livejournal.com]

I'm talking about the "Red Hood and the Outlaws" Starfire, where Starfire reveals that she doesn't even REMEMBER the NAMES of the various guys she's "done it" with, because that just doesn't matter.

Example exchange:


DC seems to think that this just means she's "empowered." But it's not that she isn't some prim and proper prude -- it's that she comes across as rather shallow and even cold. If this were turned around and it were a guy blithely saying that he doesn't even bother to remember the various names of girls he's bedded, I think the reasonable conclusion would be that he's quite a jerk. If he were going around propositioning girls and claiming "love has nothing to do with it," I don't think that would be a terribly delightful character trait, either.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Eh, I don't remember everything in huge detail, but from what I remember in the whole series so far, she doesn't actually sleep with anyone but him. And it turns into a real relationship.

This is just her being SUPER BITTER about her DARK PAST. 9.9

Which is actually pretty dark. It's just in the Teen Titans cartoon, she wasn't bitter about it.

[tapestry01.livejournal.com]

I remember reading an article years ago about what comic books would make good TV shows, and at the top of the list was "The Unknown Soldier." You could have a different star every week playing the Soldier, kicking Nazi butt-- and that never gets old. Hollywood must have warehouses full of Nazi uniforms ready for a show like that.

DC is making its mark with "Arrow" like it did with "Smallville," introducing superheroes quietly, almost under the radar. (Also, happy birthday!)