So little time, so much to do -- wait, scratch that, reverse it

[rowyn]

It feels very strange not to have done an entry in the last couple of days. Which is in itself odd, because I've certainly gone much longer without posting an entry.

Yesterday was inordinately busy. 11 hours at work and baking cookies for a goodie day today pretty much ate up the whole day. Oh, and I wrote quick answers to a handful of emails. Writing sometimes seems like more of a chore than it ought to.

I haven't written anything for Scales since Monday, and nothing for Prophecy since Sunday. But I have worked on a bit of fiction, of a sort. One of the recurring things at the back of my mind is "I should do a web comic". I don't know why it's there; I hardly ever draw any more, and long ago I figured I'd have a better shot at writing professionally than doing anything involving illustration. But it's there, almost like a challenge: Could I even do it, if I tried?

I know that I could do a comic book if I tried, because I've done short illustrated stories before. But the gag-a-day pace of a standard comic strip has always seemed awfully complicated to me. How do you come up with one quick joke after another? When I'd hear Scott Kellogg or Howard Tayler write about coming up with ten or more scripts in a sitting, I'd always marvel at it.

Anyway, this was all bubbling around in my head during the day Tuesday, along with character ideas and possible punchlines. I sat down Tuesday night, wrote up some notes on the subject. Between Tuesday night and Wednesday, I jotted out a dozen or so scripts for individual comics. So now I have a slightly better understanding for how the process can snowball, with one joke leading to the next.

Of course, jotting out a bunch of jokes on a brand new idea is a far cry from continuing to come up with joke after joke after joke on a strip you've been writing for years. Not to mention that it's one thing to do a script, and quite another to draw it. I rather expect that I'd run out of steam for this venture long before I got through the second month, even if I put this on the front burner.

As it is, though, it's definitely a back-burner project -- something to toy with while it's fun and put away when it's not. Or when I need to focus on top-level projects.

For example, tonight, I have to work on Prophecy. And possibly on my basement -- I want to get those two remaining cracks sealed, and put a layer of cement over the east wall to smooth it out (it looks terrible at the moment, even more uneven and bumpy than before I started).

Maybe I'll have time for some fun in there, somewhere.

Comments

[octantis.livejournal.com]

You might be surprised, on the web comic front. There's a lot more you can do besides daily gag strips. Lots of people ease the pressure on interesting strips by making them thrice-a-week affairs, or just plain weekly, or whatever. And even most of the gag-a-days won't do a self-contained joke every day, instead going through spurts of continuity, whether short or long. If you took your average comic book and broke it up into well-paced strips, you could find yourself with a month or more of material.

I personally find that even good gag-a-days with novel concepts run out of steam, sooner or later. It's up to the creator to either have the dignity to wrap it up like Bill Watterson did, or to keep shambling forward in hideous merchandised undeath, like Cathy, Garfield, and countless others.

I know how you feel, teetering on these projects, at least. I've considered some different ones myself, web comics and possibly a new JTM. (Similar grab-bag concept, different story arc.)

Part 1 of Long winded responce. :)

[kelloggs2066.livejournal.com]

I wanted to respond to this yesterday, but didn't have the time to compose the responce it deserves.

Writing a storyline type of comic is actually easier than you might think at first.

With me, I try to do 6 panels.

Panel one is a recap (where are we in the story?)
Then I have 5 panels to lead the story along, and
then one to make a joke out of it. (Though, truth be told,
panel 3 usually has a joke in it, just because it's at the
end of a row.)

(Also, to be fair, panel 6 doesn't always have to be a joke,
it might be a cliffhanger, or a crucial bit of information to
the story or an excuse to do some nice artwork.)

But I'm getting side tracked.

Okay, personal anecdote time:

Back in Dec of 1997, I was in an email discussion about websites.
Someone had a nice website with photos of foxes on it, and had to
take it down because the professional wildlife photographer who'd taken the pictures found out about it. I was wondering what the future of fan websites would be? Not everyone is creative. Not everyone will be able to offer original content. But, lots of people will want to have their own websites. I remember saying something like "Not everyone can be a Bill Holbrook or an RT Matheson" (Kevin & Kell and Mynarski Forest were just about the only web comics available at the time.)

That's when it hit me: Mynarski Forest is a fun little strip, and at the time, it was horribly drawn, and it only came out once a week. But, I *liked* it! I liked it enough that I read it every week.

It then occurred to me that, maybe I can't be a Bill Holbrook, but I *might* be an RT Matheson!

Then came the insecurity:
Partially because I'd never learned to draw figures before, but
mostly because I didn't know if I could make a joke that would
be funny *every* *week*.

I pondered this for several days, when I had an odd conversation
with a friend at work. (She was kinda superstitious.)

Yolanda (ominously): "Do you know what day tomorrow is...?"
Me (cheerfully): "Ummm.... uh.... Oh! Payday!"
Yolanda (seriously): "It's Friday the 13th!"
Me (one eyebrow raised): "Nooo... It's payday!"
Yolanda (starting to smile despite herself): "Friday the 13th is a BAAAAD Day!"
Me: "Nooo... Payday is a GREAT day!"

And we both laughed. Okay, it wasn't a fantastic roll on the floor kind of joke, but it was completely spontaneous.

That was when I realized, yes, I could come up with something silly, once a week.

And that's when I started drawing.

(End Part 1 because LJ doesn't like long winded comments!)

Part 2

[kelloggs2066.livejournal.com]

Since then, I've progressed to 3 strips per week, (sometimes more)
But, the point is, for me sometimes it's just takes an attitude to be able to look at the world and find *something* funny in it. Most people do that all the time, and they don't realize it.

Your stories about Mail Man and Paper Lady were hilarious! They might not have been if someone else had written them up, but you found something that was funny in your own life and wrote it down.

And, sometimes that's all it takes. Just a willingness to find something funny.

And, since you've already demonstrated your creative ability without question, I think there's no question at all that you could do it if you wanted to.

The main problem is time. Time time time time time. :(

I quickly realized that if I spent 3-4 hours a night hanging out with friends on Sinai or FurryMuck, I'd never be able to do my cartoons. Watching TV? Naw, who has time to do that?

Part of my dicision was that if I hang out on FurryMuck, I might entertain 2-3 people and get them to laugh and have a good time. By doing a comic strip, I could get more people to laugh, and when all was said and done, I'd have something to show for it: A comic.
Everything on FurryMuck just vanishes unless you save it. And who's got time to go back and read archives of Mucking?

I'd much rather read a well constructed story with a plot to it than Muck archives. (Yes, I know Sinai is different, but this isn't about role playing, it's about being creative.) Role playing is stretching one's creative muscles. Writing is *Using* those creative muscles to *build* something you can be proud of later.

I'm sorry. I don't mean to disparage your enjoyment of Mucking and stuff. This is just the choice I found *I* had to make and the reasons I made it. I guess I miss Mucking, and I'm justifying that I made the right choice for *me*. Your life is different, so your choices may be different too.

Now, if you want me to, I could probably go on for hours about things I've found that work, and things that don't in terms of character ideas genres and settings. (At least in terms of the way the audience responds to *me*.)

Personally, I'd love to hear your ideas. :)

Scott (long winded on the subject) Kellogg

[jordangreywolf.livejournal.com]

I keep thinking "I should do a web comic" too. If you ever want to bounce ideas, I'm here! And, hey, maybe we could collaborate. The thing about web comics ... is that someone has to WRITE them. And good ones have DIALOGUE. (I'm not so brave as to attempt a "no-dialogue" web-comic. ;) ) YOU, as is often demonstrated, CAN WRITE.

Keeping up with a "gag-a-day" piece would be pretty tough. I think a better model would be like Demonology 101 or Strings of Fate: a continuing story, with one or more pages/panels uploaded on some regular basis (once every two weeks?) with the exact quantity varying depending on how productive the week has been.

No sense in being slavish to a "strip a day" schedule unless someone is actually PAYING you for it!

But all things considered, I'd vote for Prophecy. (Chant: "Prah-fah-SEE! Prah-fah-SEE! Prah-fah-SEE! Prah-fah-SEE!")

[jordangreywolf.livejournal.com]

Hee hee hee! hideous merchandised undeath Ain't it so!

[rowyn]

I personally find that even good gag-a-days with novel concepts run out of steam, sooner or later.

I think the trouble with the strips that go on to "hideous merchandised undeath" (heeheehee) is that the creators refuse to let anything change in them. This is, in large measure, the fault of the syndicates, who have this idea that readers never want to see anything change, ever, in comic strips.

But strips like "Doonesbury" and "For Better or For Worse", which allow their characters to age, change, and even die, hold on much better than their unchanging brethern. ("Blondie", anyone? *shudder*.)

On the other hand, I can't think of any strip which stays at that peak "yes, this is GREAT" level that Calvin & Hobbes, Garfield, Dilbert, User Friendly, etc., all went through for a little while. Even the few that grow and develop and escape shambling undeath aren't great any more. They're not repeating the same jokes, but the new jokes aren't as funny as those early ones were.

[rowyn]

I think a better model would be like Demonology 101 or Strings of Fate: a continuing story, with one or more pages/panels uploaded on some regular basis (once every two weeks?) with the exact quantity varying depending on how productive the week has been.

The trouble with that is that I don't read that format. I read the original arc of "Strings of Fate" -- but only because it was already complete, or nearly so. I've gone back once or twice since it started up again, but never gotten back into it. "Demonology 101" I've never read at all, despite your recommendation.

Checking a strip daily works well in my routine. Even checking the ones that only run M-W-F (I have several of those on my reading list) isn't too bad. But checking something every other week is so infrequent that I'll forget to do it entirely.

The page-a-day has another thing that I dislike, namely: no closure. I had no sense, while I was reading "Strings of Fate", or "Digger", that each page was a complete work. When I got to the end of an update, more often than not I'd feel cheated: "Where's the rest?" A punchline gives me that sense of "Ah, this is what I came here for".

It doesn't have to be a punchline -- it can be a DEP. But the punchline works best, in my reading experience. The "I've filled up an 8.5"x11" space, let's call it an upload" doesn't work for me at all. One of the things I've wound up doing with Scales is only making entries public after I've reached some sort of DEP, just because if I post it whereever I happen to stop writing, then I feel like there's nothing there to hang on to -- no stopping place. Where's the rest?

The other thing that makes me prefer dailies, or at least every-other-day, strips is that they have more of a sense of community for me. I read lots of books and comic books and whatnot, but most of them don't stick with me. No matter how good they are, I finish them and go on and don't think much about them again. But a comic strip that I check regularly becomes a part of my life. It has a disproportionate sense of fame to me.

Anyway, that's what works for me. Obviously, the page-a-week model works fine for some people, as readers and as writers. But I can't see myself working on a project that was in a format I, personally, did not like.

Re: Part 2

[rowyn]

I was hoping you'd have something to say on this subject, in fact. *^_^*

Now, if you want me to, I could probably go on for hours about things I've found that work, and things that don't in terms of character ideas genres and settings. (At least in terms of the way the audience responds to *me*.)

And I'd be happy to hear more. :) One thing I have been wondering is which part seems harder to you -- writing, or drawing? It seems to me that coming up with ideas would be the most difficult part, but that drawing them would be the most time-consuming.

I will confess that I can't see myself freeing up the time to embark seriously on a webcomic project any time in the near future. Finishing Prophecy has to come first, and I have plenty of other stories I'd like to work on, too. Still, it's an interesting mental exercise.

Re: Part 2

[kelloggs2066.livejournal.com]

Okie doke.

There's a lot to say, that might be of interest to others, so I'll post it in my Journal.

Might take a bit, because there's a lot of stuff that could be covered. If you don't see something in a few days, give me a nudge.

But, one thing I can definitely answer right off:
The drawing is the hardest part for me.

To explain:
I can write or come up with ideas anywhere at any time.
Some of my best stuff comes to me in the shower or while driving or when I'm lying awake at night. I can't pull out my pencils then. :)

And I thoroughly empathize on the time issues. :)

[jordangreywolf.livejournal.com]

I think I failed to communicate on "Strings of Fate" and "Demonology 101". Neither of them was "page a day" or "page a week". Rather, it was "bundle of pages, every two weeks". The exact length was flexible, but it was whatever the writer thought was sensible for a block.

A better example would be Scott McCloud's "Zot". THAT is the format that *I* would like to use, if I were to do an online comic. It makes good use of the fact that this is taking place on the internet, and isn't confined to a X"xY" block, or a 8.5"x11" imaginary page. It's not being printed in a newspaper, it's not being printed in a comic book ... though I suppose that some web comic artists might hold out for the possibility that some day it will be.

In particular, with Zot, each page was a complete installment (if not a complete story), but it was of variable vertical length. The panels were each separate images, and the reader was expected to start at the top of the page and scroll down through the panels. This took great advantage of the way that pages loaded: the whole page isn't loaded yet, but you can still read the first panel, and by the time you get through it, the second one might be loaded already ... and then the third, and so on.

Often, with comic-strip formatted webcomics, there's the frustration that the comic reads from left to right, but the image LOADS from top to bottom. The result is that sometimes I would see the "punchline" dialogue balloon before I could see what was happening in the first panel. (This happened a lot when I was following "Freefall" ... before it seemed to just become a meandering parade of "cameo appearances of all my internet friends in the background", and I got bored.)

And I fully agree: there should be some sort of "DEP". It's easier to do that with a humor strip when you have a fixed space ... but all too often, I see things go into formula. Three panel cartoon. Two talking heads. Setup, response, punchline. I've seen some comics that are spoofs of these formats that Inari pointed out to me a long time ago. (I wonder if I can find them. I think Inari might be on LJ, but I forgot Inari's LJ persona if so.)

With drama, it's a lot harder to shoehorn it to fit within a set arbitary space like that. Comic books work better for such installments, because there are various ways to pad or compress. You can choose how many panels to cram into a page, and you can have a two page scenery splash if you so wish, and they come out once a month or so. Online, though, "once a month" is probably too sporadic to maintain a regular readership.

Anyway ... argh. Must clear out to-do list. Must come up with plot. Must devote time to MAKE SHORT FINITE-PLOT COMIC, just to see if I can do it. NOT one of my big mega-plots that have no resolution in sight. =P

Shoot, I have to leave in a few minutes...

[krud42.livejournal.com]

Dang, I like this topic.

But I don't have time to write about it right now.

I can offer you a view opposite of Kellog's... that is, from the has-been end of the spectrum. (Or the never-was-been... I mean, never-was-really. Never mind.)

ANYway, this may have inspired me to write an entry, so... if you don't hear back from me here about it anytime soon, you might want to see if I wrote an entry about it instead. I'm not sure right now, I'm just initially fired up at the topic. ':)

I really, really, really want to do a web comic.

(More to come. Hopefully.)

In another life, I was a comic strip junkie

[krud42.livejournal.com]

Okay, it's now a few days later, and I've gotten over the initial thrill of seeing you discussing comics. Or maybe I'm just tired since I got up early to take Krudita to work, and later I'll regret writing such a brief, straightforward note. ANYway... (not too brief and straightforward so far.)

In my experience, one that I've more or less abandoned in the past five or more years, comic strip designing/drawing is one of those things that snowballs... meaning that when you start out, there's a good chance you'll suck, but as you go along, you inevitably improve. (Look at nearly every comic strip out there in its first few months, and then compare it to a year or two later, and you can see the difference.)

In my introverted high school years, my primary outlet of creative/humorous expression was my comic strip, George & Pudgy. And y'know what? I'm not going to go into it here, because this is your journal, not mine. ':P (I'll write about it sometime, just not sure how soon.) ANYway, they initially sucked, looking back on it. But I eventually learned how to draw well, and come up with good punchlines. (In case you remember the comics I posted on OD way back when, those were some of the early ones that I wasn't too concerned about getting swiped.)

Also, the bigger your "perceived" audience, the easier it is to come of with stuff. I had a somewhat loyal following in high school among friends, classmates, & relatives. (I was the quiet geek with the funny cartoons.) But when I went to college, that audience was suddenly gone, and with it went my urge to do comics. (And I'm going to end this thread too, because I started to do my bio again. Sorry about that.)

I'm intimidated by the number of comics that are out there, both in syndication and on the web. I miss the days when I thought I actually had a chance at publication... I've since seen great but nigh-unknown works that put mine to shame. I guess the important thing would be to make sure you're doing it for yourself first and foremost. And if it goes over well with others, great, and if not, well at least you've got a different kind of outlet for expression.

(This is the last personal flashback, and then I'm done, I promise: A side effect, for me anyway, of stopping the comic strip generating process [at my creative peak, I was doing six a day], is that your comical outlook has to go SOMEwhere, and it will likely spill out into your daily conversation. This delights some, and annoys others. Ironically, I became much more popular when I started saying my comments in conversation rather than drawing them. [Of course, now that I'm mostly back to writing them down, my verbal commentary has diminished significantly. I'm not sure how I feel about that, to be honest.]

ANYway, sorry to have taken up so much of your time and space.

>"They're not repeating the same jokes, but the new jokes aren't as funny as those early ones were."

This is the Law Of Diminishing Punchlines. It applies to comic strips, movies, TV shows, radio shows, comedians, and even humorous journal/diary writers. It's a lot easier at the beginning when you're fresh and working up a head of steam. It's all new, and all these previously untapped ideas are waiting to be let out. After that, you have to hope that the audience will understand and will be satisfied with a slow-but-steady pace. (Though I agree that travesties like "Garfield" should be put to sleep.)

Even "Peanuts" started to wane after the first 30 years.