Running to catch a train

[rowyn]

This version of the events leading to the London Tube shooting is the most unbelievably awful thing I can recall reading.

...

I'll be following this one to see what else comes out. I hope the officers have better justification than it currently appears. O_o

Comments

[tkurogrym.livejournal.com]

*shudder*

[zaimoni.livejournal.com]

Agreed, but there's even worse behind the scenes.

Scotland Yard's story has been twisted repeatedly, to the point where it has little resemblance to the original reports.

Now, what we have no objective basis for choosing between:

• New story is more accurate
• Old story is more accurate

Now...I'm willing to bet that the ethnicity correction is "right": the passport would be a big slap in the face, and the changes were foreshadowed almost immediately (within two hours).

I'm equally willing to bet that the clothing correction is "wrong". And that is what I find awful about the whole thing. More of the same old EU law enforcement junk that actively permitted the July 7th subway bombings, actively allowed the Red Brigade run rampant for decades in France, and so on.

I was hoping the U.K. would use this trigger to follow the Netherlands in waking up before commiting ethno-suicide by multiculturalism, but apparently not. [Yes, I'm being inflammatory. The biggest indirect military threat to the U.S. is EU non-leadership, and this is looking more and more like a continuation of same.]

[science fantasy background]
Orwell's 1984's historical redaction is closely based on Stalin's U.S.S.R. — right down to sending out pages to replace pages in already printed encyclopedias. That's the stench I'm inclined to perceive.

And a slightly sanitized Stalinist U.S.S.R. history model is a great species psychology hook; it's one of the three foundational things I know about Tzarz sociology.

[howardtayler.livejournal.com]

This underscores the challenge for Western civilization in the War on Terror (which can more appropriately be renamed "the War on Islamofascism," because that's what we're really fighting).

The challenge? How to fight an enemy who is among your civilians without incurring civilian casualties. Charles De Menezes should be considered an additional victim of the London 7-7 bombings.

British authorities clearly overreacted and overescalated their security measures, but it only became clear AFTER Menezes was identified. Imagine the trouble Britons would be in if they'd been RIGHT, and Menezes had been carrying a bomb! They'd be JUSTIFIED in using that level of immediately lethal force...

This is not just a British problem. Islamofascists all over the western world would LOVE to see such police killings in the United States, France, Germany, South Africa, Australia, Greece, Italy... wherever. And now they've got a pretty good idea of how to make it happen.

--Howard

[ceruleanst.livejournal.com]

They wouldn't be justified, they'd be lucky. To say that someone could have had a bomb is not justification for that kind of overkill. And reassigning all the responsibility to the terrorists with "look what you made me do" does not solve the problem.

[zaimoni.livejournal.com]

When I initially saw this (22nd), I was appalled at the deficiency in the U.K. police training/equipment. They did not have the option to fortuitiously capture.

It took me a while to realize that the U.S. is bizarre in explicitly training its police for fortuitious capture.

[howardtayler.livejournal.com]

I'm not suggesting that it does. I'm just describing the problem in different terms.

[howardtayler.livejournal.com]

Allow me to clarify:
1) In saying they'd be justified, I'm being half-sarcastic. They would APPEAR to be justified, and the erosion of personal freedoms in the name of security would continue to escalate, with the pendulum only swinging back in the other direction after potentially MANY similar incidents.

2) Collateral damage inflicted upon your own citizens during the time of war can be blamed on those pulling the triggers (your own soldiers), but the enemy can credit THEMSELVES with those kills. In the case of our Islamofascist enemies, be sure that they DO credit themselves.

3) Through all this, we must never allow ourselves to forget that we are fighting a war. It has numerous fronts, including a home front, where enemy operatives under deep cover position themselves to murder civilians. Those who would fight on that front need to be a LOT better trained than the police who shot Charles De Menezes.

[garyamort.livejournal.com]

I hope the officers have better justification than it currently appears

Which officers? So far, I've seen nothing that does not justify the officer who shot him. As far as I know right now, the officer was given information identifying a potential terrorist, he was told no matter what you do don't let him on the train, and than saw the guy running onto the train. At which point, one officer grabbed the guy, and another shot him.

In an ideal world, the officer doing the shooting would have been able to take a moment and see that the potential terrorist was restrained, and would hold off a moment.

But given the time constaints, I think the officer made a split second decision in an emotional frame of mind, and while he didn't make the correct decision, he didn't make a wrong decision either.

For me, there is a question about the officers involved in the survelience acting appropriately. Why did the potential terrorist get to the train station? Why wasn't anyone notified earlier to stop him? And why did the information coming out of the police force after the incident seem to be fluffed up(a polite phrase for full of lies) in order to justify the shooting?

I'm sure if it happened to someone I knew, I'd be outraged. But it didn't, so I can take a more unemotional view. When it first happened, I was disgusted by those who took the facts as they were released and tried to smear the man killed and his family in order to justify the shooting. Now I'm almost equally disgusted by those who take the new rumors and try to smear the police(in truth, I should be equally disgusted by both, but my liberal bias against police and for victims is showing through there)

[rowyn]

Frankly, the whole thing makes no sense to me. If they were sufficiently sure that the guy was a terrorist that they were prepared to kill him, why did they let him get to the train station?

I don't understand -- from the information I've seen -- why this happened, or why waiting for this guy to get on the train, then tackling him, then shooting him, was a rational or appropriate thing to do.

Maybe more information will come out later that'll make sense of it. Right now, the whole thing stinks.