The Difference

[rowyn]

A couple of weeks ago, gender differences were all over LJ. I had some things I wanted to say about the topic, and didn't. Maybe because it didn't seem worth the trouble of writing down, maybe because everyone else seemed to have said it all, already.

Except that I never did read some of the things I most wanted to say, so maybe it hadn't all been said.

Some of what I saw a few weeks ago felt like it was aimed at making men feel ashamed for being male.

That bothered me. A lot.

I've always considered myself a feminist, in the sense of thinking "all humans are created equal and should be treated accordingly by law and society". In the sense that biology is not destiny, and that individuals should be judged by their abilities and actions, not their gender. That's what "feminist" meant to me as a kid: that women and men are equals. Maybe not "identical", but generally worth treating similarly in the absence of any other distinguishing information.

I don't know what "feminist" means to other people. To some it seems to mean "one who believes that women are victims of male oppression" or "one who thinks there's an evil conspiracy by the patriarchy to dominate women" or "one who thinks women are better than men". I don't think any of those things. (At least, not about modern American society. In some other cultures "male oppression" is a lot more applicable.) If that's what you think feminist means, then I'm not one.

I don't feel oppressed. I don't feel like a victim. I never have.

I'm not saying prejudice isn't out there, or that it doesn't affect other women in negative ways. Or even that it hasn't affected me. I don't feel it and I don't think about it, and that makes it less real to me but not less real.

At the bank where I work, at least 90% of the employees are female. At my branch, out of about twenty-five people, two are male. My department is loan operations; we do all the back-office support for loans -- preparing documents, processing payments and advances, booking loans, etc. There isn't a single man in loan operations, out of twenty-plus people. Among the sixteen loan officers, who are substantially better paid than loan ops, one is a woman. She works in collections and has no lending authority.

I don't think this is an accident, or coincidence. I don't think gender has nothing to do with it.

But I don't think it's because the bank won't hire women as loan officers, or men as loan processors. I don't think it's because men are trying to keep us down, to maintain "male privelege". I'm not even sure it is privilege, because being a loan officer is a sucky high-pressure job. The bank couldn't pay me enough to do it, and even if they did I'd be terrible at it.

I don't know what exactly causes the disparity, whether it's subtle cues lingering in the way we treat each other, or part of genetic propensity or what. But one thing I'm pretty sure of: it's not a male conspiracy against women. It's not men saying "women are too stupid/weak/incompetent" to do this job. I don't even think it's men at all, not anymore. Women are also complicit in accepting what's expected of their role. Men are complicit in accepting their roles, too.

These roles aren't imposed for the benefit of either gender above the other.

If I'd been born a man, I think I'd be a computer programmer now instead of a bank employee with an English degree. If koogrr had been born a woman, I think she'd be an artist now instead of an engineer. I think I'm happier as a bank employee and a wannabe author than I'd be programming computers. I think Koogrr would be happier as a starving artist. That's where gender roles got us. Is it a privilege? For which?

Am I privileged to have been encouraged to place my happiness and the people I love before my career and material wealth? Is he privileged to have been encouraged to pursue material wealth and judge his worth based on his financial success?

I don't like gender roles. I don't like one-size solutions. But I don't dislike them because they screw my gender. I dislike them because they screw people. Men and women. Anyone who doesn't fit in the right box gets shafted. Stay-at-home fathers and career women, male kindergartner teachers and female loan officers. Women who don't want children and men who cry when they're upset. Women who dress for comfort and men who want to be beautiful. It doesn't matter how you don't fit in, all that matters is you're swimming against a current of expectations. Silly expectations.

haikujaguar wrote a good post on comparative pain -- the point being, it does not compare. I don't know if she was thinking about this when she wrote it, but I was when I read it.

That men get falsely accused of rape does not compare to women being raped. That women get locked out of high-pressure jobs does not compare to men dying young from the stress of high-pressure jobs. That men get judged by the size of their wallets does not compare to women being judged by the size of their chest. The one does not justify the other. It is not okay.

People seldom want to hear about the problems of others when they are weighted down by their own. Don't tell me my problems aren't real. Don't tell me they're insignificant compared to yours, or someone else's. Don't tell me it's all in my head. Don't tell me the things I see can't be real just because you don't see them. It's real to me.

Our problems are real to all of us, and we're all in this together, doing the best we can to rise above them. That's the important thing.

I'm rambing. What I want to say is this:

Most of my friends are male. This isn't because I like men better than women. I just happen to like a lot of male-dominated hobbies so I mostly meet men.

I do not feel patronized by men, or devalued, or objectified, or looked down upon. I can't imagine thinking such things as characteristics of my friends. My friends generally have more respect for my intelligence than I do. It pisses me off to see people write these things about half of the human race, about my friends, to look at men as if they need to apologize for being male, for existing, for having gotten stuck with a gender role they never asked for.

I didn't ask for my gender role either, but you know what? Mostly I'm grateful for it. I'm glad I can cry when I'm unhappy and hug my friends and say "That's a nice dress" and be sexy when I want to and all the other things I got with the Female Package Deal. When I look at the kinds of problems men have to deal with, I think, "I'm so glad that's not me."

I'm sure it works fine for plenty of men, of course. It's a pretty roomy box in America and it fits a lot of men fine.

Still.

I just want to say, to all my friends, that your gender isn't anything you need to apologize for.

Comments

[ladyperegrine.livejournal.com]

*stands and applauds*

So. Well. Said.

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear! :)

-TG

[(Anonymous)]

It's often that feelings are tender
When issues arise about gender
Your words are quite wise
And their wisdom applies
When "Attacker" complains of "Offender".

===|==============/ Level Head

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

If I was a girl... I'd probably be a stay at home mom. Or -- no, a crazy cat lady!

Or exactly the same, only working for a different company for a lot less pay, maybe the city of Cleveland.

Or, maybe, exactly the same. I dunno.

Where's my finglonger?

[nanashi-jones.livejournal.com]

For a ramble, that was well-balanced. Well-thought out too.

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

Wow...

Very good...

... and yes regarding being an artist vs an engineer.

[rowyn]

Awww. Thank you. :)

[jimmy-hollaman.livejournal.com]

i consider my self to be a little of both genders. Yes i was born male, but i also see things in a female way. One person i was in a poly type relationship had another boyfriend and a girlfriend. her other boy friend said some thing that i loved. he told her that she had him who was male, had the girlfriend that was female, and james who is the gray area in between. i liked that thought of being the gray area...

[rowyn]

Wow, you quoted me in your LJ! Thanks. :)

[rowyn]

I think America has done a much better job of resolving her gender hang-ups than her racial ones, but it's still a work in progress.

But a work in progress from both parties, working towards a solution for all, not one that favors "their side".

*poke?*

[rowyn]

Why are there no crazy cat men?

For me, it was a pretty close call between English and Comp Sci as a major. I started out as a double major, had some trouble with CS, and wound up with it as a minor instead.

I think being male would've pushed me towards CS. Which would've made me more financially successful, but I doubt any happier. I mean, another $100,000 a year would make a significant difference in my life, but another $10,000 or $20,000 wouldn't have that much impact. And there are a bunch of things that just suck about being male (from my perspective) which would not remotely be offset by mere wealth.

[rowyn]

Thank you. I was thinking about it for a while, but it's hard to get it all down in some vaguely coherent fashion. It's a complicated subject for me.

Re: *poke?*

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

Have to agree.

I'm not sure how things would have shaken out, had I been female. I think the message from my parents would have been essentially the same: You have to set an example for your sister, you have to work hard, get a degree, get a good job, meet someone nice, get married and have babies to be successful.

However, I think the emphasis on WORK HARD, GET A DEGREE, GET A JOB would have moved to GET MARRIED, HAVE BABIES. That seems to have been the principle difference between what she heard, and what I heard, based on how our lives turned out. (Though she would have had 'you need to be as good as Koogrr' instead of the need to set an example - I know she was getting that as well.)

How that slight pressure would have deflected the thousand-pounds of train of my life, over my life, I can't say. However, having the setting for "Number of people that must be financially supported by you before you count as a success" minimum changing from 2+ to 1- or 0 doubtless would have had some impact. The "can't make money as an artist" negative would have had a reduced impact pushing me away from that life choice because it wouldn't have been absolutely essential that I be able make enough for myself and a non-working wife. (Or, go off an get myself killed in a war defending the men who can)

And if babies were the measure of my worth (and... yeah, I kinda feel that even as a male) at least I'd have a better chance and be able to ask "I've made four, can I throw my life away on the stuff that interests me yet?" instead of "Have I generated enough money to throw my life away yet?"

So, yeah, "Oh my bank balance is nice!" only goes so far.

And to answer your question, the male version of the Crazy Cat lady collects either guns or cars.

[rowyn]

Yeah.

It seems like "it's not too late to be a starving artist", and in a way it's not. In another sense, well, it's easier to make no money if you never have made money. Once you know "I could make a steady $xx,xxx doing engineering instead of trying to scrape by on commissions that I don't want to draw that much anyway" -- it's hard to say the latter's better.

Re: *poke?*

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

Or comic books?

Re: *poke?*

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

That works too.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

I'd *like* to be, but I've come to the conclusion that I think too much like a guy in the stereotypical ways (wanting to fix problems instead of empathize, liking math better than language, doing typical (geeky) male activities) to really make that claim.

[rowyn]

You've always struck me as being a mixture, too. Which I think is cool. :)

Re: *poke?*

[rowyn]

Oddly, despite having a stay-at-home mom, I *never* thought that I would *ever* be supported by a husband. I thought -- even growing up in the 70s & 80s -- those days were past. I was sure I'd need to support myself for the rest of my life.

I don't remember ever thinking my success would be measured by the number of children I had. I defined success as "supporting myself, having an SO, and being happy". I think that's the message I got from my family.

[rowyn]

You seem to get on pretty well with language, too. :)

So in what ways do you think of yourself as feminine? Or perhaps better-put -- why would you like to be able to claim gender ambiguity?

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

I liked this post, but my own thoughts on the matter are so complicated I wouldn't even know where to begin to respond.

Part of that, I suspect, is being a woman raised by a woman of the generation that straddled the cusp of the feminist movement. The messages were highly mixed: "You have to be able to go out, get a job and be successful like a man!" and "Being a stay at home mother is important, have lots of children!"

Talk about whiplash about your destiny. :)

[rowyn]

I know what you mean about "complicated". It was hard to sort out what I wanted to say for this post, and I'm not sure I got it right even with all those words.

I didn't feel a lot of that stress between worlds myself, when I was growing up. My parents mostly wanted us to be self-sufficient and happy. I wanted to fall in love and didn't think I ever would, but neither half of that was from them.

I think that's more me being sheltered and lucky than from any lack of conflicting messages from broader society. O_O

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

I think I'll daydream about being a girl artist some more. That made me feel happy, the rest of the things I've been thinking about, haven't.

[haikujaguar.livejournal.com]

*chuckle*

My transition to stay-at-home mother has not been simple, that's for sure.

[terrycloth.livejournal.com]

'Cause I've always wanted to be a shapeshifter?

It would be awfully convenient if I could switch back and forth depending on which was easier at any given point in time.

Physical shapeshifting wouldn't cover it 'cause you'd just be lying to the people you were with -- making them comfortable under false pretenses, or whatever. Extra creepy!

[the-gneech.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. And I may very well do it again, so watch out! ;)

-The Gneech

[jimmy-hollaman.livejournal.com]

there is both a good side to it and a bad side. Trust me stick with being the person you are, its easier....

[koogrr.livejournal.com]

I removed a comment I decided I didn't like having out there.