rowyn | Forgiving

Forgiving

What does it mean to forgive?

I was reading one of these little health pamphlets from my insurance company ("stay healthy, you'll save us money!") and one of their bits of advice was "Forgive people".

Now, in general, I see this as good advice, for reasons you're all doubtless familiar with.

But in some cases, it strikes me that I'm not sure what it means to 'forgive'. A few thought experiments.

Imagine you've got a good friend. You share some interests with this person, you've had a lot of good conversations with him, you get along well.

And then one day, you find out that he's done something awful. Not illegal, but clearly wrong. Maybe he slept with your wife. Maybe he's been spreading nasty lies about your work habits. Maybe he's been making sport in other circles by re-telling secrets that you told him in confidence.

Whatever it is, you confront him with it, and he shrugs at you. "Yeah, I did that. I do that kind of thing all the time. It's just fun, y'know?" He doesn't apologize. He doesn't even feign contrition. As far as he's concerned, he's done nothing wrong.

Maybe he doesn't care that he hurt you. Or maybe he cares that he hurt you -- "Hey, man, I didn't realize she was your wife at the time" -- but only because he likes you. He'd still cheerfully do the same wrong thing to a stranger. No particular reason, no special excuse: just he can and he will.

What does it mean to forgive someone like this -- someone who does not apologize and doesn't even think he's done something he needs to be forgiven for? His other good qualities haven't changed -- but could you still be friends with him? Should you?

Is it possible to forgive him while still refusing to have any contact with him, or does forgiveness require acceptance of the person, too? Can you say "I forgive you, but I won't give you the chance to do that again" or is that a contradiction? If it's not, what does "I forgive you" mean, anyway?

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Is it possible to forgive him while still refusing to have any contact with him, or does forgiveness require acceptance of the person, too? Can you say "I forgive you, but I won't give you the chance to do that again" or is that a contradiction? If it's not, what does "I forgive you" mean, anyway?

Very toothy post.

Working from the bottom up: "I forgive you" means that the forgiver is no longer going to nurse anger or resentment over the particular event which is being discussed. "I forgive you, but I won't give you the chance to do that again" is no contradiction. Forgiveness is not an invitation to repeat a trespass. If a trespass is likely to be repeated then forgiveness can only be effected through appropriate safeguards against repetition. If refusing to have any contact with a person is what it takes to avoid reinjury by that person, then that is a necessary component of forgiveness.

Forgiving is more about you than about the other person. It is the process of releasing yourself from the obligation to revisit the event.

I would say that it's your responsibility, when you are wronged, to be ready and willing to offer forgiveness. However, obviously forgiveness takes two; it's impossible to forgive someone who isn't penitent.

You can resolve to offer forgiveness to someone, yet simultaneously resolve to protect yourself against further injury. Also, even if the person is truly contrite, he may offend again by accident or weakness, in which case you should offer forgiveness afresh.

You are not obliged to forgive someone who hasn't offended you, personally. You are not obliged to "be friends," in the sense of sharing warm feelings, with anyone at any time. You are not obliged to protect anyone from the normal consequences of his actions, whether he's contrite or not. In fact, a truly contrite person will typically try to pay for any harm he has done, not dodge it.

However, obviously forgiveness takes two; it's impossible to forgive someone who isn't penitent.

I don't think that's true, or perhaps it's just as some of the others have said elsewhere in the comments: the word 'forgive' has multiple parts to it.

One aspect of forgiveness, and this is probably the 'health' aspect of forgiveness, is purely the action of the forgiver and doesn't require penitence on the part of the forgiven. It's the part where you say "I am not going to be upset about this any more." The oher party doesn't have to make it right or apologize or come to terms with you in order for you to say "I forgive this act. I will not seek redress for it, nor will I carry the weight of anger for it, any longer." It's an act of releasing yourself from the obligation of carrying resentment.

Now, arguably, it might not be right for you to forgive someone who isn't penitent. It's certainly better for society if we seek redress against unrepentant criminals rather than forgiving them immediately for their crimes. to use an extreme example. :)

You can forgive but not remain friends, certainly. Forgive doesn't mean "be stupid" after all. If someone is clearly not trustworthy, forgiving them for betraying your trust doesn't mean you necessarily have to trust that person again. Or like them, for that matter. If a friend killed your dog for pooping on his lawn, you don't have to stay friends after you forgive that incident. The forgiveness is for the incident - what you do after is a whole other ballgame.

ahh, such a lovely topic of mush-minded idiocy in so many conversations...

There seems a distinction which I have found to be rarely considered between forgiving someone the debt you feel owed by them for their action, and pardoning the offense of their action...

Perhaps I'm not even stating it well, it feels slippery enough to me. ...

The distinction feels like it lies between "I will not hold you accountable for a penalty that I would demand of someone I did not have the same relationship with" and "Your action requires no penalty"... Maybe it's people trying to equate forgiveness and absolution that I'm taking as an issue?

< thinking out loud in comments in other people's journals instead of writing comments in his code />

Ah, absolution. That's a term for it. I think you're on to something there. I think that some people indeed equate forgiveness with absolution. I had that on my mind when I was typing up my reply (though I took so long that your post appeared before I finished mine), but I didn't have the word to mind. Thanks for helping me bridge that momentary gap in my vocabulary. ;)

I have generally interpreted it as meaning that if I am to forgive someone, then I am not going to seek redress, retribution or revenge against that person. I am not going to be brooding over it, letting my anger boil about the transgression. What's done is done.

Some people seem to think that in order to truly forgive someone, I must pretend that it never happened, or else that there was nothing wrong with it. (But then, if I were to say to someone, "I forgive you," that would imply that there was something to forgive, and I don't think that would hold up very well.)

In the past, I have held the idea that, "Well, I can forgive someone if they apologize to me, but I can't forgive someone who refuses to apologize." However, that seems to go against the idea of "turning the other cheek". I do no good to anybody if I brood over details. (I should note, though, that I don't think that I have the right to "turn someone else's cheek" for them.)

I think it not unreasonable to take action to try to make sure that the transgression can't happen again. There's nothing inherently sinful about locking your doors at night to provide some protection against being burglarized, for instance. It would be silly if, up to this point, you haven't been diligently locking the doors, but after you've been burglarized, you feel as if you can't start locking them, because that would indicate a failure to forgive the burglar.

As far as having contact, well, I do think that we should all have a certain amount of freedom of choosing who we prefer to associate with (or not), though circumstances may overrule our objections from time to time. (That is, I would not feel right in refusing to work with someone because I have a disagreement over his politics. However, I do feel that I should have the freedom to be as absolutely arbitrary as I please when it comes to figuring out who to invite over for a back yard barbecue.)

For a reference, I can think of a personal situation where I have offended a friend greatly, was subsequently forgiven, but contact between us after that point has been scarce. The last time I ran into this friend, in a chance passing in a convention, said person seemed to pointedly look away and examine some brochures rather than to acknowledge my greeting. The reaction surprised me at the time, but, ah well, it's a proper enough consequence for my past behavior. I have been forgiven - in that someone isn't going to try to "get back at me" - but I've demonstrated that social interaction with me can result in emotional costs. I can't blame someone for choosing to avoid me, therefore. (And it's not like I exactly go out of my way to make renewed contact, either.)

You can forgive yet not forget.

Religions often preach and teach that we should "turn the other cheek", and "forgive (and love) our enemies".

If a transgression is done in error or ignorance, then of course consider forgivness; after all, it (supposedly) wasn't done to you intentionally.

If, however, it was done callously, and/or the miscreant is not remorseful, then IMHO it's madness to "forgive" such a transgression. It sets you up as a fool and a patsy, and brands you as a target for future abuse.

But then I've been told that my ideas and attitudes will earn me a spot in Hell, too. To which I usually smile and respond, "Great! I'll save you a seat in the front row!" *evil grin*

I think that our language is making this concept harder to think about. There are two separate concepts:

1) A decision to accept the transgression and not stress about or avenge it.
2) A decision to treat the transgressor differently as a result of (1).

The first decision is purely internal. One might be influenced by the friend's subsequent behavior, but it's equally plausible not to be.

The second decision relates much more clearly to the friend. It will probably be communicated to him (directly or indirectly). How contrite he is, how important the relationship is to you, how serious the transgression was, and how much risk there is of it recurring could all tie into this thought process.

The second kind of forgiveness can happen in stages or degrees. Perhaps as a former friend you're willing to keep some contact with this person (which you wouldn't with someone less close to you who had committed a similar offense), but things will not be quite like they were before. Perhaps things will gradually return to the way they were.

Also, there's no way to tell how things would otherwise have been without the original transgression. Even if after a year you fully absolve your friend of all guilt, perhaps the two of you drifted apart during that year. Even, absolution will not reclaim the year, although it will restore potential to the next year.

for·give ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fr-gv, fôr-)
v. for·gave, (-gv) for·giv·en, (-gvn) for·giv·ing, for·gives
v. tr.

1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

Just so that we are working from a proper definition.

I'd say you can forgive someone without them asking for it, but you are doing it for yourself and not for them. When you forgive under these conditions, you are doing #2, renouncing your anger against the person, essentially not holding a grudge. If you remain in contact with this person, then you set yourself up for future hurt. I advise staying at a distance so that you don't "go down with them" or get "sucked into the drama." I am friends with people who would have the opportunity to put me in a bad situation if I let them, but I keep the friendship under control so that I'm not put into the kind of situation where I can be hurt or sucked into the melodrama.

Ok, without reading the other comments (yet, I will ..) this has been a fairly important topic to me over the years, and one I struggled deeply with for a long time and I can only give you my conclusions based on personal experience.

Most people tend to think of forgiveness in terms of The Person Who Did The Wrong, I've come to the conclusion that's erroneous - it's not about THEM, it's about YOU. One of the reasons self help, and mental health brochures recommend forgiveness is it IS about your emotional state and health. To not forgive means you're carrying around, anger, hurt, a grudge, even hatred and bitterness.... non of which over the long term is GOOD for YOU.

You can't control how other people feel, or act, forgiveness is about controlling how you feel and act. Being angry, being hurt - that isn't going to change what happened, why, or the person who did the hurting. Forgiveness is the act of letting that go. Forgiveness is understanding that, that person acted in the only way they could based on who they are, or the experiences they know whether that they be emotionally healthy or not, and that you can't change that. Forgiveness is about accepting what one cannot change. It's about not letting someone else's negative actions control your emotions. "I don't have the power to change your behavior, but I am the only person with any say over my emotional well being, I am the only person who has the power to say "I forgive you" and let go of the negative emotions it's generated in your life.

Does this mean continueing to allow that person's negative behaviors to affect you? Does it mean you have to continue to allow this person access to your life and well being? No. You can forgive a person's behavior through understanding that they can only be the person they are, it doesn't mean you have to accept unhealthy behavior in your life. We all evenutally have to face admitting that someone we know can behave in poisonous ways. Sometimes those are minor irritations or sporadic enough, and they have enough postive traits that we continue to associate with them - but you can still reject further instances of the negative actions. Some people are so negative and poisonous as to make any association with them uncomfortable or unacceptable. In which case we cut off ties with them. That's not being unforgiving, that's being self protective.

I have forgiven my exhusband for all the things he put me through. He couldn't be anyone other than who he was. Did he know how evil he was at times? Yes, I suspect sometimes he did, but he still was the man he was/is, and I can't change that. But I'm not going to carry around the negativity that generated, life's too short for that, and I refuse to give him the power in my life to still pull my emotional strings. I don't hate him. Doesn't mean I have anything more to do with the man than I have to, because he's still an unhealthy person to allow in my life.

Forgiveness isn't being wimpy and letting messed up people to walk all over you, rather it's the exact opposite and reclaiming your emotional power and well being.

I wonder about this very question so often, from so many different possible sides of the equation, and I wish I had any useful advice to offer. :(

I may get in trouble for saying this, but IMHO it's an inherently subjective thing. Nobody's under any obligation to associate with anybody. Nobody's under any pressure except for their own and that of their moral code (and maybe their blood pressure) to be forgiving -- it's just an excellent and productive ideal to aspire to. It's a matter of how much you, personally, can forebear from somebody without compromising your dignity and your principles.

IMHO I think it means 'Live a low stress lifestyle', and holding a grudge is stress-inducing. To forgive someone means to give them the free hit they took on you, and not try to balance it out somehow. If you must balance it by severing contact with them, then so be it - that removes stress from your life, because you're no longer worrying they'll come back and bring further irritation.

That's not, notably, the Christian sense of forgiveness; that, I think, entails a degree of wisdom and acceptance of others' flaws that many would find difficult to achieve.

Imagine that Jesus Christ got married, say, then found out that Judas had been slumming around and cheating on him with his wife.

Judas: "Yeah, I did it. She was lonely, you were away preaching, I was feelin' the itch."

Jesus: "I forgive you."

Judas: "What? What's to forgive? It's not really a sin, we all live in a commune, like, and share property, right? What's yours is mine, what's mine is yours? And no one got hurt, right? So it's not really a sin."

Jesus: *smiles* "No. Thank you for telling me about it. I think you understand, deep in your soul, that it was wrong. But you have admitted it, and for that, I forgive you. I accept that you will, perhaps forever, perhaps only for a short time, still do these wrong things, because you will place value on momentary pleasure over the love of friendship. I do this because I love you for being who you are. So long as you choose to be, we are friends and you are my disciple. I will forever see the goodness in your heart, and work to encourage it to grow."

Judas: "Like, man, that's heavy. Uh. So that means it's okay if I go on seeing your wife? 'Cause she really is hot."

Jesus: *smiles wider, gets out a shotgun* "No."

I am late to the discussion, but did chuckle out loud at your scenario.

A previous poster pointed out three meanings of the term "forgive" -- but the most important and keenly effective one, it seems to me, is what you do internally.

You can hold great anger -- stress, as you pointed out -- as a result of a real or perceived transgression. Forgiving someone is releasing that stress, and consciously deciding that it is not worth being stressed about.

Now, you can forgive a wasp for stinging you -- but it is merely prodent to avoid that nest in the future, for wasps do what they do whether you get mad about it or not.

Some people are like that. ];-)

The trick is to take the prudent external action, and maintain a calm internal view at the same time. Sometimes this is no more complicated than "don't get mad, get distance."

===|==============/ Level Head

To forgive someone is to look into their heart and see the fallible human in them, the pained, hurting, twisted, confused human heart. To see it and to recognize yourself in it.

It is a wholly separate thing from your social interactions.

For me, anyway.

True forgiveness is the realization that whatever's bothering you really doesn't matter anymore. I have forgiven people who don't actually know me for brief but offensive interactions that meant nothing to them, and I have forgiven friends for immediately inconsequential things.

To forgive someone you know for something that remains important requires that they be genuinely sorry. Otherwise, you have to lose contact with them for long enough that they are really someone else to you if/when you see them again.

The way I see it, to forgive someone is to remove the emotional burden you carry for their actions (anger, fear, sorrow, whatever). We're human, so when someone does something that affects us, it's natural to have an emotional response. Sometimes we have one just from someone doing something near us, or hearing about something that was done in another time and place. To forgive is to recognize in our hearts that we don't need to carry that emotion any more.

If a person's repeated behavior keeps affecting you emotionally, then I don't consider it real forgiveness. You might have forgiven one or more past infractions, but you haven't come to terms with the behavior.

In some cases, it might not be possible or proper to come to terms with the behavior, in which case you need to consider removing the behavior from your life to truly forgive. This might be accomplished by really working on helping the person understand the error of their ways (or, at least, how it affects you), or by removing/distancing them from your life so you can forgive from a safer place.

Also, even if you truly forgive the repeated behavior, it might still be prudent or appropriate to try to work with them on changing their behavior. Just because you forgive doesn't mean you can't address the issue, in fact many issues are easier to address when you have some emotional distance.

Forgiving does not either imply forgetting nor preventing the situation from happening again. Although I would have to say that in the vast majority of cases I can come up with, forgiveness does not allow for avoiding contact with the other involved (but there have been times that I have avoided until I was able to forgive).

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